On a whim, Susan Oles decided to try judo after trying to enroll in a jazz class at night school. She studied under Rudy Kizitaff, who would take her to see Takahiko Ishikawa. It was with Ishikawa that she would gain a better appreciation for the art and for his dedication to judo. Today, she talks about her experience with Ishikawa and his legacy on American Judo.
Martial Arts of Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow: Welcome Oles Sensei! Thank you for joining us!
Susan Oles: Thank you for your interest in Ishikawa!
MAYTT: When did you first started training under Ishikawa and what were your first impressions of him as a person and as an instructor?
SO: Probably in 1965. I went to a night school and that’s how I started judo. I was out of high school, and I wanted something with physical activity. I wanted to take jazz because I used to dance, but when I went there, it was all filled up. The woman said that they had judo and I didn’t know what the hell that was. She said that judo was physical, and I said fine, I’ll try it. That’s how I started. My instructor, his wife, to this day is still one of my best friends and she’s married to Dick Hue. He’s like ninety-four years old now but he’s still on the mat. But her husband, my original judo instructor, died a few years ago.
It was probably in early 1966. My instructor was Rudy Kizitaff and his wife would take me down to Ishikawa – I would go down with them. So, I was just going to another judo club. I didn’t know when I started with him that I was with a judo great – I just didn’t know. I was just learning judo and learning it well. As I began to see, hear, and talk, I started to understand more. I was eighteen or nineteen years old at the time, so I didn’t understand that I was with a judo great. But I was very impressed. I went to his judo club like everybody else would. I think we would go a couple days a week, mainly Wednesdays and Saturdays.
I didn’t seek Ishikawa out; I just went down with them. At the time, I didn’t know enough about judo to know exactly who I was in the presence of.
MAYTT: What was the judo scene/community like in Philadelphia/Virginia Beach? Was it a vibrant community interacting with one another or were there small pockets of schools and clubs in almost isolation from each other?
SC: I would have to say that it was small and isolated but then, we were part of Shufu Yudanshakai. Any tournaments or anything like that, people would come up from the Washington/Virginia area or we would go to them. I lived outside of Philadelphia so whatever was actually happening in Philadelphia, I really didn’t know about. Where I was, outside of the city, I was just going to Ishikawa’s, but I didn’t know of any other clubs in Philadelphia at that time.
MAYTT: Who were some of Ishikawa’s black belts and how did those individuals help disseminate judo and continue Ishikawa’s legacy?
SC: I knew Dick Walters, Johnny Walters, and Joey Walters. Dick is dead. I haven’t seen John in many years, and Joey lives down in Lamora, below Ocean City, New Jersey. Of course, they were very active in the club. Joey wasn’t around that much because he went to Vietnam twice. He’s the one that got his leg blown off but continued judo even after that. I remember one of the women, Dr. Yolanda Mapp, a black belt and a highly educated woman. There was Bernie, Fran Marky. Now Fran Marky was another one who has since died and his wife, Elaine, came from New York City, she just died in September [2021]. She was eighty-six years old. And were still friends. Whatever happened there, the friendships were lifelong. I think that speaks of something. We all had this common bond. And then there were some brown belts that took over and helped out too, Rusty Scott and Greg Morgan. Another one of the black belts that just died in December [2021], he was one hundred and one, Jack Hunter. He and I remained friends. I talked to him twice this past fall and I talked to his wife. There was something that bound us all together. Lou and I are like brother and sister. There was something that pulled us all together and if you didn’t have the right spirit or the thoughts about judo, I guess you were gone. We were family. I don’t know how else to explain it.
MAYTT: What was the dojo atmosphere like while training under Ishikawa? Was he a strict instructor or would there be some flexibility in his teachings?
SC: It was kind of amazing. He would go over things and teach with us, and then he would go in his office. He had his other black belts like Dick Walters, Bob Kohl, and some of the other higher black belts that would work in with the class. Keep in mind, I was about rokukyu or gokyu – that was about it. We would pair up and start to do our thing.
At that point when I started, women couldn’t shiai – we weren’t allowed to shiai. Of course, we could randori. Kata became another big thing for women.
But when he taught you – it seems to me that what I know now, the things I learned then are still with me, and we’re talking fifty-some odd years. Sometimes when I hear other people, I think, “How do you not know that?” I’ll still think that however he taught you, it stayed with you. You learned. I don’t know how else to explain it. You just learned. I remember the other thing that there wasn’t a lot of women but there was a group of us and we remained friends even until now. If there were a few guys that would get rough every once in a while with us, somehow he knew it; somehow he knew, even when he was in his office. He saw even when you didn’t know he could see. [Laughs] And he would call in one of the other black belts and more or less they take care of that situation. This meant that the people that were just being mean or bullying would get thrown around like a piece of paper for a while. That’s how he took care of things, and it was taken care of. We always felt comfortable. It was a good atmosphere. I loved it. It was a good atmosphere.
I don’t know how he did it. And yes, you’re one hundred percent right, it was a family, and the training, and Lou was another one. Joe Condello. Whenever we traveled, I always traveled with them. A whole bunch of us would get together and all drive together. We’re still friends and Ishikawa had something to do with that and I don’t know if that’s something he thought about, “Oh, I’m going to make lifelong friends with judo.” [Laughs] However, he and I, even after he moved back to Japan, I reached out and we would write back and forth to each other. I still have letters up until his nineties, right before he got dementia. He would basically tell me the same things every time he wrote, but I would fill him in on all kinds of nonsense because I referee and right there – [Laughs] I credit him for whatever he taught it was more than just throws and hold downs, chokes, armbars, and locks. It was more than that. It was the true spirit of judo.
MAYTT: You bring up women not being allow to shiai and almost some gender discrimination within training. How often did you experience that sort of thing in judo?
SC: Not a lot. I’ll tell you honestly, I always felt part of the community. I understood we weren’t allowed to shiai. Again, you’re starting in a sport, and somebody says that you’re not allowed to shiai – that’s it. What are you going to do when you’re first starting? You could randori, of course, and we concentrated on kata. He concentrated one teaching Dick’s wife and me kata. He worked with us with Ju no Kata and when he trained us, he trained us very well. At that point, we’re past 1966; we’re now in 1967 and 1968. We were going down to Ishikawa’s more than twice a week. We were going down there a lot. And he just sat and trained us in kata. I always felt very welcome with everybody. It thought it was a very equal sport to be honest. At that point, I didn’t look at things with, “I can’t do that.” Again, you come into something, and you accept the way it is. As you go along, as I said, we concentrated on kata for a few years. And my instructor Rudy, when we would go to tournaments, his wife and I, because we had nothing else to do until the kata competition which was usually the end of the shiai, we would time and score. So, we would always be busy doing something. And we felt very much a part of it. We liked doing that.
I’m the only girl in my family. I have six boy cousins and I had a brother. I always did what the boys did. I was always accepted with the boys. I realized early on if you wanted to be a girly girl, you would have nobody to play with. It’s not going to be a pleasant life, so I was a tomboy. With judo, because we worked out with the men – we didn’t just work out with the women, we worked out with the men. I remember two guys, they were brothers, and they were just being putzes, that’s all. And Sensei took care of it. They didn’t last in judo, obviously, because they didn’t have their hearts in judo. Like Lou Moyerman, we have been friends since he was like fourteen and I was eighteen. I didn’t feel that discrimination. And maybe it was the way I was because I was always used to being with guys and we used to do our thing. Let’s put it this way, you don’t whine and cry and be a baby girl, you’re going to be treated fine. I get it if you went in there like a baby, you’d be treated different.
MAYTT: Tell me about his relationship with Helen Foos, his benefactor in both Philadelphia and Virginia Beach. How did Foos meet Ishikawa and how close were they?
SC: That was before my time. I don’t think I met Mrs. Foos in my life. From what I read and heard, she sponsored Ishikawa to come here. I think he, Hajime, and the girls lived with her. But I don’t know anything else about her.
MAYTT: There was some tension between Ishikawa and Eichi Koiwai almost ever since the former arrived in Philadelphia. What do you think prompted such conflict and why do you think it lasted so long?
SC: That’s a funny story too. Phyllis and Doc [Koiwai] were good friends and Phyllis loved my husband – well, she was like the mom to all of us. She and I were very close. I knew her before when she was Phyllis Rogers. They didn’t live far from where I live now and often times, we would get together for dinner. Phyllis and Doc, Dick Hue and his wife Lanie – my first instructor’s wife and my kata partner. I did not know about it. There are things that go over my head or things that I don’t pay attention to them, especially when it’s people airing out their business. So, I ignore it or I don’t listen, or it goes in ear and out the other. That’s just the way I am.
One day I was talking to Phyllis on the phone, and I said to her, “Oh! I got a letter from Sensei Ishikawa!” Well…[Laughs] Then I held the phone arm’s distance away and she started yelling and screaming. I don’t know if you ever knew Phyllis, but she had a voice with her that could shatter glass. Loved her to death, but she started yelling, “You have to know your history! You have to know!” Now, she’s married to Doc and that’s her husband I would expect nothing less for her to defend her husband. To be honest, I didn’t hear every word she said because I was literally holding the phone an arm’s length away and I could still hear her voice coming through. [Laughs] “You have to know your history! You have to know what’s going on!” She did not want to hear about Ishikawa, and I was all for Ishikawa. And this was years and years later, after everything happened, sometime in the early 1990s that I’m tell her this. I did not know what happened. Obviously, or I wouldn’t have brought up Ishikawa. After she got finished yelling at me, Doc got on the phone and went, “Are you alright?” [Laughs] Because that was that relationship. I went, “Yes I’m fine.” “Okay. Glad you’re alright.” [Laughs] It was never to be discussed again, but I know there was a big story and I know that something happened, but in all honesty, I’m not sure. Even when she told me, I was not taking it all in because I guess if you’re saying something against Ishikawa or if you’re saying something against Doc, I don’t want to hear it. And that’s just how I am because I love these people. I love Phyllis – these people are my family and families have problems. We all do. That’s the way life is.
I know that there was a big to do. I heard since then that a demonstration that Koiwai threw Ishikawa – but I can’t confirm it. It’s all hearsay. I do know that Doc had something at the YMCA at the same time as Ishikawa, but again, I didn’t know more about that until afterwards.
So, I’ve known Doc, so he must have been coming to Ishikawa, because I’d known Phyllis and Doc. There must have been a time when they came to Ishikawa and his dojo. When this whole thing happened… remember I was out for twelve years and a lot of things might have happened during that twelve-year period that I was out, which was probably from 1976 to about 1988.
MAYTT: When he became the head of his own club, both the Philadelphia Judo Club and the Ishikawa Judo Club, what was his administrative practices like? Was he one to take on full responsibility or to delegate such duties to other members?
SO: There was a woman named Trudy. Trudy was always there. She was alike a permanent fixture. [Laughs] She was a black belt. I can’t tell you if I saw her do anything on the mat. If I recall, Trudy took care of all of the administrative stuff.
He would sit in his office, and he would play go a lot, if somebody was there to play go with him. But he taught and that’s all he did. I don’t remember him being a part of the administrative things. I wouldn’t expect him to, to be honest.
MAYTT: What prompted his move from Philadelphia to Virginia Beach?
SO: Again, that was during the period I was out, so I can’t really answer that for you. Well, he had two clubs in Philadelphia. He had the one on Broad and Raise and then he moved around the corner from that, I think. I don’t know exactly what year that was, but I think it was when I was out of judo. I think Mrs. Foos had something down there. She built him a beautiful dojo. I never was at that dojo or went to it, but I know it was beautiful because I have a picture of it. Virginia Beach was where he retired to after Philadelphia.
MAYTT: How different do you feel the legacy of Philadelphia Judo would be without Ishikawa Sensei’s influence?
SO: I don’t think there would be any. Those of us that trained under Ishikawa – okay, I’m seventy-four now and I’m still refereeing – who are still very involved in judo. Joe Condello is still working out, and his daughter and Lou’s son, the Walters’ opened up a dojo down in Ocean City, New Jersey. Unfortunately, it’s not there anymore. Whatever we learned from him, it just seemed to me that people continued with judo. It wasn’t just a club where people came and went. Shufu was extremely strong and still is strong. I think whatever happened at Ishikawa’s club, not only the friends but you got judo in your blood, and it didn’t leave easily. What Lou does and has done for judo is amazing. Yes, it started with Mrs. Foos but then through Ishikawa it just stayed with you. I think without that I think there would’ve been a big emptiness and a lot of people wouldn’t be around doing judo.
MAYTT: You seemed to have close relationship with Ishikawa. Could you explain what your relationship was like with him?
SO: For a little background, in 1968 I got married and then I started having children. During that time, I wasn’t at the club as much. I know he always said when I came back after having a kid that I was better now because I was paying more attention and listening. I didn’t go to New York when he received his ninth degree. I was there at his big retirement party, before he went back to Japan. But I didn’t have a close relationship with while he was here because in about 1976 or 1977, I dropped out of judo. I had four kids and our life involved soccer, so I was a soccer mom. So, I missed out on a lot of stuff. From that period on until about 1988, for about twelve years, I wasn’t really involved in judo. I was involved with my friends, but I wasn’t really involved in the sport. Then I came back after that because Sensei put it in your blood.
When he got over in Japan, I started writing to him, somehow. I don’t even know how all that started, but we stayed in touch just by letters. By then, I knew who he was. [Laughs] I was no longer that stupid little girl. He probably tolerated a lot. Just the way he worked with Lanie and I on kata. Sensei wasn’t one to go to competitions to watch the students he trained. He would train them at the dojo and that was it – they would go off and compete. Somehow, he always knew what they did and what they should’ve done. That was always like a joke; how did he know if he wasn’t there? But he knew; he always seemed to know what they were doing.
Lanie and I competed in the Senior Nationals in 1968 in Sacramento, California and Sensei went. Sensei wasn’t political. That had no time in his life. He didn’t understand any of it and it wasn’t part of him. We went out to Sacramento to compete in the Senior Nationals and Laine, my partner, was only a white belt. She had been in judo longer than I had, but she also had kids. I wasn’t married yet at the time. She didn’t care about rank, so she had a white belt. We competed and Sensei sat there. One of the things, because she was the uke in Ju no Kata, he made us wash our feet. He made us do that because our feet had to be clean, especially hers because her feet were going up in the air. That’s the kind of detail that Sensei had. So, we washed out feet, competed, and did nothing wrong. We were perfect and we did everything the way we trained us. And when we were training in Philadelphia, he brought Mrs. Keiko Fukuda Sensei to the club to work with us. He had invested interest in us; he really wanted us to do well in Ju no Kata. He taught us well and we did well. I remember seeing a lineup of all of us with black and brown belts, and one white belt standing there – it jumps out at you like a sore thumb. We didn’t place. What we heard afterwards was that we actually placed fourth. They said that even though we made no mistakes, because one of us was a white belt the judges didn’t feel that a white could understand the movements of Ju no Kata; they couldn’t understand the whole theory behind Ju no Kata. The bottom line had worried about the politics, he could have thrown a brown belt on her, and no one would have known the difference. He went back to his room, and he left. He was very annoyed and heard much more about it after that.
But that was the mentality of the Japanese at that time. I get it now, but he would never have thought, “Oh, I have to put a different color belt on this person.” He knew she understood. He knew because he worked with us. He beat us to death down there in Philadelphia! Dear God! [Laughs] We would do the Ju no Kata over and over again; and the fine tuning, even to the point where we were washing our feet before we competed. For them to say she didn’t understand was something.
For us, we wanted to do good for him. That’s who you wanted to be good for because he was sitting there, and we did it. We were perfect. We did not make any mistakes. He was happy with us. I don’t think we cared back then, but we were out in California, so who knows. The main thing was that we pleased him. The whole white belt thing wasn’t in either of our thinking and it wouldn’t have been in his. That’s not what it’s about – what color belt you had on. It was your training, and he knew he had trained us. And we knew it. He certainly didn’t blame us because we did everything he wanted us to do, and he was proud of us. I think that’s the kind of stuff that bonds you – it’s not about whether you win a medal or something like that.
I try to explain judo to people, especially if they don’t know, I’ll say that my sensei was the highest rank in the United States at the time and one of the best in the world, if not the best in the world. And people kind of look at me. So, your kid just started soccer and Pelé is his coach – trying to put it in that context. They don’t get it and that’s okay. We’re a weird group of people. We are what we are. Judo goes much deeper than any other sport because other sports don’t have the philosophy behind them. They have rules, but that’s about it. They don’t have the whole philosophy behind it.
MAYTT: What do you believe judo meant to Ishikawa Sensei?
SO: It was his life. I never really knew him having any other life. It was his life. I don’t know whatever happened with his first wife and the kids. I guess it was very difficult when he lost Hajime; his daughters went on his way. I don’t really know him having any other life. When he went back to Japan and met last his wife, that was awesome. Judo and go; if you ask me about Ishikawa, I would say judo and go – that was his life.
Even the letters he would send me as he got older, he would say, “People come to play go with me.” I don’t know what rank he was, maybe sixth or seventh degree in go. People would travel from far and wide in Japan to come and play go with him. I remember him sitting in the dojo and if somebody knew how to play go, he would sit there, and play go with them. Those two things were his life.
He was a very quiet and humble man. He wasn’t loud. He used to giggle; he had a giggle that you wouldn’t expect to come from somebody like him. [Laughs] One time when we were at a promotion and a lady was going up for rank. We had a randori. I knew that she had to look good, so I took a fall and he started giggling. I went, “No! No! She threw me! She threw me!” [Laughs] Listen to me; I am now telling the god the judo what a good throw was! I thought he wouldn’t recognize when somebody takes a fall, but he didn’t get mad or anything, he just giggled. I realized now how silly it was to even try that. It was funny.
When he’d throw you, he’d move around during randori and then he would sweep you. You’d be on your back, and he would be giggling. [Laughs] That’s the kind of guy he was. Of course, he would never hurt you and you were never hurt. But there I was trying to take a dive and not have him notice, like, come on. That’s how silly I was! [Laugh] And she passed.
MAYTT: What are three significant contributions you feel Ishikawa Sensei did for judo as a whole that change people’s perspective of the art?
SO: He taught and inspired other people. Look, he was the best technician around and you weren’t going to get any better than that. When he taught you that way, you learned, and you learned it well. I guess that’s why some of the people that are still involved – myself and Lou. There’s something that he inspired in us. That’s a true teacher. Even when you wrote and said to me earlier, “Susan Sensei,” I cannot be called sensei. There is, in my life, only one sensei – that’s it. I get embarrassed when people call me sensei – and I’m not chastising – I can’t, not when you had Ishikawa. That’s the way I feel about it. Ishikawa, he was a sensei. I don’t normally call others sensei either because, to me, he was the only one. He was the one. He left us with judo – that’s all I can say. And we’re still here. He gave his all.
MAYTT: They often say one person can make a difference. What difference did Ishikawa Sensei make in your life specifically?
SO: Well, would I still be putting up with this stuff? [Laughs] Somebody put something in you that just said to you to put up with this stuff. It’s a give and take. You listen and take a deep breath and you move on. I guess I got all that from Ishikawa. I saw throughout my time as a referee – I didn’t have it bad, but you always have a few hiccups – I go, “Oh why me?” but then I go, “come on now.” Again, I don’t know the full story but there was a time that Ishikawa used to referee. I don’t think I ever saw him to that. But apparently, they wouldn’t let him continue unless he took a test. That’s what I heard too, and I think that was something that had to do with Doc Koiwai; he may have just been facilitating the referee commission. But they wanted Sensei to take a test and he refused, and that was another issue. All the nuances of it I don’t know, but I think to myself, everybody that I look up to and knew from judo had a hiccup somewhere along the line so why should I be any different. And actually, it’s what they say: it builds character. It’s a pain in the ass but it makes you say, “Hey. They went through this, and they survived, and you can too.” So that’s the kind of stuff that you look back on your history and go, “That happened to this person and that wasn’t fair!” Well, that’s too bad. Life isn’t always fair. Get on with it. That’s how you learn and see what happened in people’s lives and how they moved on. And that’s another lesson, isn’t it?
MAYTT: What does judo mean to you?
SO: It’s everything also. [Laughs] Of course, my family is first, however, there have been times throughout the refereeing thing – I’ve been refereeing now for over forty years – that they haven’t been first. I have a great husband that supported whenever I would go away, sometimes weekend after weekend. It’s a very big part of my life. Other than family – my blood family – judo is my other family. It’s a tight family. We suffer together, especially when they die – like with Jack Hunter. There’s a different way we look at things like he was one hundred and one and I told him, “Jack! Don’t fall. If you do, take good ukemi!” and he said, “Okay, I will!” And that’s how we would talk about it. Or if he did fall, I would say, “I hope you took good ukemi!” [Laughs] It wasn’t like it was the end of the world. also important, a lot of women my age now are so afraid of falling – “Oh, I’m so afraid of falling and breaking a hip!” – because of judo, that does not enter my mind. It’s not even a part of who I am. Why? Because I’ll take an ukemi. Will I get hurt? Yeah, I might, but I know how to take an ukemi. Other referees and I have been walking through a parking lot and we’re talking. One of the girls fell over; she tripped on something. The other three of us kept walking and talking and some people said to us, “Your friend fell over!” “Oh, she’s alright.” Honest to God, and I’ve done it myself when I walked out of building and I missed a step, and took ukemi in a parking lot, stood up and as long as my uniform isn’t torn, I’m good to go – let’s go. It’s just the way it is. There’s not a lot of coddling, “Oh, are you alright?” Someone breaks a toe; so what? You got nine other ones. And I like that – it works in my life.
I am aware when I’m out when I’m by myself. I’ve had to travel a lot by myself. I’ve had to travel to foreign countries by myself. Do I like it? No. But do I do it? Yes, because of refereeing. But it empowers you, especially as a woman – and maybe a man too, I don’t know how men think – because you know stuff. Now if you got attacked and pass out when you fall on the ground? Maybe. Or maybe you do something. Who knows, but I hope I never find out. But mentally I can kick anybody’s ass. [Laughs] As long as I can mentally do it, I feel good. It’s also an awareness of where you are, of your surroundings, and it’s a life skill. Actually, I’ve been around people who have fallen and, because of being a referee, I immediately analyze how they fell. Did they hit their head? Did their head go back? Is that something we have to worry about? No; okay good. Did they land kind of on their side or butt? People would be laying there I’m saying, “You’re good! You’re good! You took a great fall!” [Laughs] “Yeah, I’m alright!” “Good! Good!” Its silly stuff like that but as I say, it’s an empowerment. It’s always family; you’re never alone. I’ve gone to other countries – Guatemala, Argentina – no matter where you go, you’re not alone. As soon as you get into a dojo, your home. That’s it. It doesn’t matter. All of a sudden, you take a sigh and say, “Ok, I’m here. I’m where I belong.” And the ones that you have to deal with that don’t get it, they tend to weed themselves out eventually. They just don’t get the whole understanding. You back off and you let them fall over. You can use that in other things in your life too. Whatever you’re talking about is a bother, just let them push, whoever it is, and then step aside. Momentum will take them and probably fall on their face. So that’s judo, to me.
MAYTT: Where do you see American Judo going in the next decade?
SO: I don’t think we’ve ever gotten it right, how to run our organization. That’s just my opinion. I remember in the beginning, so I’m going back fifty-some odd years, there were the three organizations, judo was having problems, and guess what? Here we are today, and things aren’t a whole hell of a lot better, and I just think, “What the heck?” First of all, how can somebody encourage somebody to join and organization which, nationality, has three different organizations that it belongs to? And they don’t always agree. Of course, any organization is going to have their problems.
I don’t think we’ve handled money well at all. As a referee now, they’re starting to pay us now. I used to referee soccer and could make all kinds of money on the weekend locally, because every game I would be paid! I would get twenty-five, fifty, or a hundred dollars per game. Not judo – they can’t afford it. I get it to a degree, and I don’t have the solution, but without a player, you can’t have a referee. If the players can’t afford to enter into a tournament, then you don’t need a referee, so that’s the end of the story. You can’t be charging players to death. You’d think after all this time, there would be some money in the organization to take care of these things. And then on the other side, if you want professional and good referees, you have to pay for them. Or you’re going to get people that are pulled out of the stands, that aren’t licensed and don’t have insurance. I don’t have an answer and I don’t like criticizing things if I can’t be part of the solution.
Competing wise, we just do it – the girls do; the women do! [Laughs] Kayla Harrison and Ronda Rousey, they have. And Katelyn Bouyssou-Jarrell is coming up now doing all that stuff. Angelica Delgado too. For the men, I just don’t know. We don’t have the same training. Maybe other sports can subsidize better, but how can judo players train and work too, or have a family? They can’t do it. all you have to do is look at how we do internationally and it’s not setting the world on fire. Now maybe we’re too big. I don’t have the answer. You take a country lie Israel and they’re starting to kick ass all over the place, but it’s a very tiny country and they can specialize and really work on things. Maybe we’re too big. I don’t think I’ll live to see any great change because I haven’t seen it since 1966. We’ve had some good players here and there, like Jason Morris, Jimmy Pedro, Travis Stevens – a lot of the Olympians. I don’t have an answer for that – it’s above my pay grade. [Laughs]
MAYTT: Thank you for this great conversation!
SO: It was great to relive those times.
